237: Helping Farmworkers Manage Stress

Farmers and ranchers have some of the highest suicide rates of all United States occupations. Misty Oebel, Health and Farm Stress Extension Educator at Michigan State University works with a team to help farmworkers manage depression and anxiety. Their educational initiatives, outreach, and teletherapy give farmworkers who often live in remote areas access to help without a commute or social stigma. Misty highlights the importance of community support, recognizing signs of stress, and maintaining a resilient mindset through learned optimism. She reminds listeners that the farmer is the most important asset on the farm.

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Before we jump in, please note that this episode contains discussion on suicide. If you prefer to skip this one, there are nearly 250 other episodes to choose from. If you need resources or support. Call or text the suicide and crisis lifeline at 9 8, 8 for 24 hour free counseling services in the United States.

[00:00:26] Beth Vukmanic: Of all occupations in the United States, farmers and ranchers have some of the highest suicide rates. Welcome to sustainable winegrowing with vineyard team. Where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic, executive director. Since 1994, we have brought you the latest science-based practices, experts, growers, and wine industry tools through both infield and online education so that you can grow your business. Please raise a glass with us as we cheers to 30 years.

In today's podcast Craig Macmillan, critical resource manager at Niner wine estates with a long time sip certified vineyard and the first ever sip certified winery. Speaks with Misty Oebel. Health and farm stress extension educator at Michigan state university. Misty works with a team to help farm workers manage depression and anxiety. Their educational initiatives, outreach and teletherapy, give farm workers who often live in remote areas.

Access to help without a commute or social stigma. Misty highlights the importance of community support, recognizing signs of stress and maintaining a resilient mindset through learned optimism. She reminds listeners that the farmer is the most important asset on the farm. Before we get into the interview, I wanted to share a message from Lupita, a vineyard team.

Juan Nevarez is Memorial scholar. She says my parents left Mexico to give my siblings and me a better future. I want to make them proud by finishing school and pursuing my dream of becoming a pediatrician and the Salinas valley so that I can give back to my community.

We know that higher education is important to many students, but paying for college could be challenging.

This unique program provides financial and support services to the children of California's vineyard and winery workers. So they can earn a higher degree. You can help a student like Lupita, make their dreams come true by making a gift. By visiting vineyard team.org/scholarship. Or look for the link in our show notes. Now let's listen in.

[00:02:35] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Misty Oebel. She is a health and farm stress extension educator with Michigan state university extension. Thanks for being on the podcast.

[00:02:44] Misty Oebel: Well, so much for having me.

[00:02:46] Craig Macmillan: And today we're going to talk about a concept called farm stress. When I first heard the term farm stress, I was thinking of farms that were stressed, you know, land that had been overworked or was in decline and that kind of thing, cause that's a lot of the stuff that I talk about and study, but that's not what we're talking about in this context.

What does farm stress mean in your world?

[00:03:05] Misty Oebel: So in my world, I'm focused on behavioral health. I look at providing education about stress, particularly chronic stress and its impact on the agricultural community. So I think it might be more accurate if we went by the term of like farmer stress or stress on the farm, but that's not the way it's titled.

So farm stress is what we go by.

[00:03:25] Craig Macmillan: One of the things that brought your project to our attention, and it's really extensive. MSU Extension is doing a lot of work in this area. It's really impressive, and we'll hear some more about that. Suicide rates are one of the highest in the occupations of farming and ranching of any occupations in the United States, actually.

Which a lot of people might be surprised to find out. And related to that, there's also very high incidence of Depression and or at least meeting the criteria for depression and for generalized anxiety disorder. And, you know, by these, I want to make sure that we're clear that, you know, we're not talking about simply being like, Oh, I'm sad.

Oh, I'm depressed, but actually things that impact your ability to function, your actual mental illness conditions

[00:04:05] Misty Oebel: Right. That's exactly right. When we're looking at these numbers a lot of we're studying it through self report. So it's asking questions. It's not asking a question like, do you feel depressed? It's asking a question like, are you having problems with your appetite? How is your sleep changed? How are your relationships with other people?

Are you experiencing irritability on a regular basis? Those are the kinds of questions that they ask. And then those are the criteria that they're looking at when they're saying agricultural workers are you know, we're finding that about 60 percent of the people that are participating in these studies are meeting the criteria for.

depression, about 55 percent for generalized anxiety disorders. So this is significant because that does impact your ability to function.

[00:04:50] Craig Macmillan: And are also risk factor for things like suicide and substance abuse.

[00:04:54] Misty Oebel: And that's exactly right. We see much higher rates of suicide rates amongst agricultural workers than other occupations. We do see, really high substance use rates as well. Alcoholism we see is reported with heavy use for alcohol amongst farmers is about 38 to 50 percent of farmers in America, which is pretty significant.

The other issue we see is farming or agricultural workers also have the highest rate of stress related death. due to disease. So that's a very major concern for us.

[00:05:25] Craig Macmillan: It's a major public health health issue. Issue around this. When you said you were , asking these questions, getting this, this data, how is this data being collected? How do we even find out, this is an issue?

[00:05:36] Misty Oebel: There's a preliminary study that's coming out of Illinois State University. It's being done by Rudolfi and Berg. They're the ones that are leading a lot of the information on this. And so there's the study that I'm going to quote most because those the numbers that are most they're the most relevant to me because I do work in the Midwest.

And so what we're looking at is we're just when we start to see those statistics like the high suicide rates, the high rates of death by stress related disease we start to see the amount of issues we're having with alcohol and opioids and even we're seeing some stimulant use. increase at this point.

Those are all things that start to trigger us to do a lot of research and try and figure out what this impact is and why it's happening.

[00:06:13] Craig Macmillan: And I'm guessing that is where the MSU extension managing farms for stress program came from.

[00:06:18] Misty Oebel: Yes, there was a significant need. The USDA was asking for people to participate in and start providing education and support for farmers because we were noticing that there were some pretty significant issues within the community.

[00:06:32] Craig Macmillan: This is one of those things that's true for a lot of areas of public health. How do you. Get to the populations that need the help because people don't always come forward looking for help or there the demand there? People are having issues and they're coming looking for help. What's the what's the the interface?

between the farm stress program and the target population

[00:06:56] Misty Oebel: Sure. So one of the things that we're doing through our program, we spend as much time as possible in rooms with growers. Speaking at a lot of conferences, speaking at a lot of meetings. We spend as much time as possible, putting our faces out there and trying to build that rapport.

And I have yet to speak in front of a group of people on a farm stress and not have people waiting in the wings afterwards to talk to me about that. So there is some face to face connection there. Sure. We also have people who hear about us through like news or hear a podcast or read an article and then they go looking for our website and then they connect with staff that way where they're reaching out to us and saying, I might need a little bit more help.

Can you help me with this? So that's pretty common. We also receive phone calls and emails from people all the time who say, Hey, my veterinarian said I should reach out to you or my accountant or, you know, my Miller, it's these people who they have professional established relationships with who are saying there's something that's not right.

right? There's something going on here and you need to talk to somebody about it. And so we connect with people that way. But I would say quite honestly, the number one way that we are connecting with people is we get an email or a phone call from someone who loves a farmer. So it's a parent or a spouse or a sibling who says, you know, my, sibling, he has this farm, he's been working on it for a long time.

He's really, really depressed and he's not doing anything about it. And we're getting really, really worried about him. So there's a lot of different ways that we come in contact with these farmers. I would say probably the number one way is because somebody noticed something was going on and then they connected them with the appropriate resources at that point.

[00:08:32] Craig Macmillan: And that's an important point the role of community and family and our social networks The old see something say something Sometimes it can be hard to do when it's a loved one and probably the most important to do when it's a loved one.

[00:08:42] Misty Oebel: I agree with that. Just this year alone, I've talked with six different families as they're surviving the loss of a loved one to suicide. And one of the things that keeps coming up is I noticed something was going on, but I didn't want them to be mad at me. I didn't want them to be upset.

I didn't want to hurt their feelings. And it's one of those things that I think we would all rather have somebody be upset with us than to lose that person. And so that's really important. If you see something, say something, notice something, refer them to somebody. It's also really important to start learning about how we can communicate.

You know, how to ask open ended questions, how to ask difficult questions and how to practice those active listening skills so that when somebody is answering the questions, you're hearing what they're saying and you're not just waiting for that opportunity to start talking again. Those are all really important.

There's trainings that we can offer through MSU Extension. There's an open course that's available on our website. It's called Rural Resilience. It's open to the community and it's free and it's online. So it's, it's really useful, but it's literally trained to teach you how to recognize signs of stress in yourself and how to manage that stress, but then how to recognize signs of stress in other people and then how to communicate with them and have positive communication that could be helpful.

[00:09:52] Craig Macmillan: So you mentioned this website. We just talked about how you kind of get in contact with the population. What are some of the other methods that you folks are employing around this to get people help? What is the kind of help that you can provide?

[00:10:03] Misty Oebel: Some things that I think are really useful, again, that referral process is really important to us. So if you know about us and then you see somebody that you care about is struggling, please let us know. Through MSU Extension, we offer a lot of other programs that aren't necessarily related to farm stress.

So it's not unusual for us to talk to like a field crops educator or a fruit crop educator, and they're coming to us and they're saying, Hey, I'm working with this farmer. And we're seeing these behaviors and I'm talking to them and I'm trying to get them to talk to you. That's pretty common as well. So those are all resources we have available.

We offer through the website, we offer a lot of things. And I always tell people if you're interested in the Farm Stress and you want to know more about our program, if you go to our website, and it's usually pretty easy if you type in like MSU Farm Stress. we're usually the first result. We come up pretty quick.

And that website has everything. It has articles we've written. It has educational materials. It has those programs like the training materials available as well, that online training. And then it also has a form that you can fill out for our teletherapy program, which is also really beneficial.

[00:11:04] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, so I was just gonna ask about that. So you are able to put people or connect people to talk therapy services either tell therapy or face to face.

[00:11:12] Misty Oebel: Yeah, it's actually, it's one of the programs we're really proud of. We have this opportunity to provide it to people who are connected to the agricultural community. And it helps because there's a lot of barriers within the farming community to getting, you know, mental health services. You know, most farming is done in rural communities.

So we know rural communities have less access to medical services, let alone behavioral health services. We know that then if somebody is interested in going to like counseling, it's going to take them longer to travel to a therapist. And then they're going to sit there and they're going to come back.

There's also some stigmas attached still to like mental health issues within rural communities. So you know, when you talk to a farmer and they say, you know, I just don't want them to see my truck sitting in that parking lot. I'm just really concerned about that. I don't want people to think something's going on.

And so teletherapy is a resource then that it removes those barriers for them. You can do it from the comfort of your own home on a laptop or a smartphone. They use cameras, so you're still able to see the person. You're able to have a conversation and talk with them.

It's completely confidential. And then it's a really great resource then because then It removes the barriers and makes it accessible to everybody. The other piece of that is sometimes one of the barriers is cost. That can be really prohibitive for people, especially farmers who are independently, you know, they work for themselves, so they're not always insured, you know, so this can be a problem.

And so MSU extension has the availability. We actually provide for and cover the costs for any agriculture workers within the state of Michigan. At this point, our funding is limited, but we're able to then cover the cost of that. So there's no cost to the farmer either.

[00:12:44] Craig Macmillan: How many folks are you getting in contact with? How many folks are taking advantage of this?

[00:12:48] Misty Oebel: At the moment, I don't have the numbers. That would be something my program lead would have. I just refer people. It is something that we refer people on a pretty regular basis, probably one to two a week we make a referral or we talk to somebody about sometimes more. So I think that that's a pretty good estimate that we are definitely reaching people this way.

[00:13:06] Craig Macmillan: And that actually just reminded me of something else. So is this referring folks to behavioral health professionals that are outside of the MSU system. Is this, is this program funneling folks to other existing folks or is this counselors and therapists and prescribers inside the MSU system?

[00:13:23] Misty Oebel: We work with partners. This is one of the things we wanted to do. Like for example, I have a background in counseling psychology. Our program lead has a background in psychology as well. We have the backgrounds in it, but we don't want to be doing therapy because that takes us away from that education piece.

So we refer to licensed therapists and it's been really good so far. I think it's been a really great program. We try to look for therapists that have a background in agriculture as well. We recognize the subculture of farming is unique, and we don't want to send them to people who are not going to understand where they're coming from.

We want to make sure that there's that background there already.

[00:13:56] Craig Macmillan: In your experience so far can you describe what some of the aspects of a agricultural subculture are like? Because I agree with you. I think there's very much some commonalities. And there's a cultural component that's different than other aspects of American life. What are some of the things that you've seen and what are some of the barriers that come from that?

[00:14:18] Misty Oebel: Oh, goodness. Yeah, there's a lot. There are things that are so unique to farming that you don't see literally in any other profession. You rarely see people who identify so much with their work as growers and farmers. People who, you know, It's so inherently ingrained into who they are. It's becomes part of their identity.

I could use an example. It's kind of how I came into the firm stress work. My dad grew up on a farm and, you know, just a little farm had six brothers and sisters, parents. They worked this farm and his father passed away when he was 17 years old. And within a couple of years, they realized that without.

Their father, they really couldn't continue the operation. They started selling equipment, selling animals and leasing the farmland. And when I asked my dad about it, when I was a kid and was asking questions about what it was like when he grew up, one of the things he said that's always stuck with me is he said, you know, it was really strange to be a farm kid without a farm.

Even after the farm was gone, he's still so identified with that aspect of his identity that it just. never occurred to him that you're not really a farm kid without a farm mate. He still was. And so that's very unique to farming. There's a legacy aspect of farming that we don't see in every other profession as well.

There is an understanding that this is something that we want to continue to go on. And we passed into the family. So kids are growing up knowing there's that expectation that, that This is going to be passed on and we will be taking this over. So there's that legacy aspect of farming. There's the idea that you're in a rural community, so you have fewer neighbors than people in urban areas.

So sometimes that can mean that you have really strong community nets, but other times it can mean that you feel really isolated as well. As we're entering a more modern area and we're seeing less individual farmers. I want to say it that way.

We're seeing bigger operations, less small farms that can also feel really isolating for farmers because less people understand what they're going through, less people are able to relate to them on that level. There's so many things that are so unique to this subculture. And and they're also just so, so much, when we say salt of the earth, we're literally talking about farmers.

They are the people who are out there day to day. They feed us. They're taking care of the land, and they take such pride in their work, and they're so conscientious about that work. I think that's really important to recognize. They're a completely different culture of people, and so I think it's really important.

It's really valuable that this work exists just for the fact that this is a culture we can't lose in our country.

[00:16:40] Craig Macmillan: Absolutely. And you know, having programs that say, Hey, we we understand you and where you're coming from, I think might help a lot. And I was very impressed by what I've seen online. It's very welcoming the way that it's presented. It can be very daunting to try to reach out for something that you've just assumed no one's going to understand, right?

And if you kind of get the sense that there are people there for you who understand who you are and where you're coming from, I think that definitely helps. There are a couple of things that I noticed that I thought were really cool. One thing is the idea of resiliency. A resilient mindset and a productive mindset are two things you have.

Materials about developing and maintaining and etc. Can you tell me about those two ideas? I just think that's just so interesting

[00:17:24] Misty Oebel: I'm gonna argue, and I'm always gonna argue this, that a resilient mindset is a productive mindset, because a resilient mindset I think we could define it, if we're going to define it just at its simplest terms, it's, it's learned optimism. I think there's already innate optimism when we're talking about agriculture anyway, because otherwise, how do you face a drought one year and then go back and do the same thing the next year?

You have to be optimistic. I mean, you just have to, it's innate. But I think that a resilient mindset is that learned optimism, which is we're able to accept that, you know what, things don't always go the way we want them to. Things often happen that we did not hope for. We face uncontrollable circumstances all the time, especially in farming, when you're dealing with weather or, you know, pests, things like that.

So we have to be able to accept when things aren't going well and still be able to move forward with the idea that things are gonna be okay, even though things aren't going well. Now they're gonna be okay and we're gonna get through it. I've survived everything up to this point. I'm gonna survive this.

I'm gonna go on to the next thing, and it might look different, but it could still be good. And I think that's that resilient mindset that we talk about. And there's so many benefits of a resilient mindset. You know it decreases depression and anxiety. We see better physical health because our cortisol and adrenaline levels, those stress hormones are lower.

We also see again that ability to move forward and to be adaptive and to be more focused on problem solving than getting stuck on just what the problem is. So that resilient mindset, I always argue this resiliency is is productive. If you're not resilient, you're going to struggle and you're going to get stuck.

And then you're not going to be very productive.

[00:19:02] Craig Macmillan: I'm gonna call on you as a practitioner now? What are some examples of techniques or tools or things that I can that I can do that. They will help promote this in myself

[00:19:11] Misty Oebel: The two most important aspects in resiliency is making sure you have that community. So making sure you're building a community, you're finding people who support you, who understand you and who care about you. That's the number one thing that is actually the most influential factor we have found in resiliency and whether somebody is going to bounce back from a difficult situation.

Community social connection. We actually find isolation is really, really dangerous. It increases depression and anxiety, it increases cardiovascular issues, and suicidal ideation goes up when people feel lonely. So, community is number one. The second thing I always argue is really focusing on that emotional health piece.

And we can do that in a lot of different ways. But one of the simplest ways is to start practicing those mindfulness techniques. And sometimes when I say that people are like, Oh, that's that hippie, dippy stuff. And I don't want to do that. You know but what we're really talking about there, did they just put a name to it?

It's just being engaged. It's just being present in your moment. Cause sometimes we get into the habit of. I'm stressed and I've got a lot to do and we get into this autopilot mode and we just keep working and we plug away at it and we feel really good because we just keep going. But when we're doing that, we also have to ignore a lot of other things that are going on and we're not really aware of what's happening.

So practicing mindfulness. Because practicing mindfulness allows us to be engaged enough to be aware of what's going well so we can be grateful. Gratefulness is really great for you know, resiliency. The other thing that it does is it allows us to notice when things aren't going well, and that allows us to do that problem solving and be like, okay, what can I fix?

And then if something can't be fixed, okay, I can accept this can't be fixed, it's out of my control. And that's also really important for resiliency. And then that third piece to when we're really aware of what our moment is like it allows us to be aware of our emotions and to recognize them as they're happening and to process them instead of doing the thing where we like are just shoving those emotions down because I'm busy.

So I'm going to shove it down and then I'm going to keep working and then another emotion flies in and you know what? I don't want to deal with that right now either. So I'm going to shove that down too until we blow up because we have just this overwhelming flood of emotions we've been ignoring. And so when we're practicing mindfulness, it allows us to process them as they're happening and they never get to that huge overwhelming stage.

And we can practice mindfulness in a lot of really simple ways. It's not complicated. It's not something that you have to go through a class or something to learn how to do. You know, it's a journaling. I'm going to sit down every night and write down what went well today and what didn't. It is meditation or prayer breathing exercises, really, really simple breathing exercises that just make you pause.

and stop and notice what is happening around you and in your body. That's it.

[00:21:53] Craig Macmillan: And I'm guessing You're communicating these ideas in various forms. I mean, there must be print form, there must be video form, there must be face to face form. I mean, are you doing clinics, trainings, newsletters? What are all the different avenues that you're using to communicate these very, very, very practical, very specific things?

What routes are you using to get those to people ?

[00:22:14] Misty Oebel: Like I said before, if there is a room with growers in it, we try to be in that room. We, we speak at every opportunity that we possibly can because we do want to make sure the message is getting out. We participate in podcasts. We write articles, we write a lot of articles. We are actually in the process of re updating a lot of our program materials right now to make sure they're all fresh and all the information is new and current.

So we do that. Those are all available online. The training programs that are available online. We talk to families who are in the middle of it. And so we talk to people on the phone. It's not unusual for us to spend an afternoon at a farmer's kitchen table. talking with them and figuring out what their next steps are.

Literally any avenue. So we have all of these print materials that are available, a lot of stuff available through our website, but we are also people who are available. Should there be a need for that as well?

[00:23:03] Craig Macmillan: Something else that I noticed that I thought was great is, you know, obviously farm stress doesn't just affect the adults that are involved. It also affects youth. And like you talked about this generationality aspect and how important it is. Just like you said, farm kid without a farm. It's farm kid.

You know, that's part of the kid. Can you tell us a little bit about that and how that's fit into your program?

[00:23:23] Misty Oebel: Yeah. That same study that I was talking about earlier by Rodolphe and Berg, as those numbers have come out, they also did study on farm youth. And what they found is that the numbers for depression are the same. About 60 percent of farm youth meet the criteria for general depression. We see slightly lower on generalized anxiety, it's about 45%. The number that I find really interesting, I want to know more about, is 62 percent are reporting the, the diagnostic criteria for separation anxiety, which is very, very interesting. Yeah, that one kind of throws me. I don't know where that's coming from, but it's really interesting. And I'd like to know more about that one.

What this tells us is that as parents and adults, we're not doing as good as we think we are and hiding how we're doing. It tells me we're not doing as good as we think we are in hiding, you know, when stress is occurring, when we're depressed, when we're anxious. Kids are pretty intuitive and they pick up on that.

I know my kids have called me out on stuff like that before and like you weren't hiding it as well as you think you were. So that happens. I think there's also when we go back to it, there's that legacy aspect of it where there's an understanding that if this farm is going to continue, somebody is going to step up, somebody is going to take over it.

And so you see really young kids who start assuming the responsibility of the problems. well before they really need to do so. So that is absolutely impacting them as well. I think it makes it really, really, really important for parents to be paying attention for those signs of stress in their kids as well as in signs for themselves and their neighbors.

They need to be paying attention. Are they showing mood changes? You know, are they suddenly really irritable? Are they having problems sleeping? Am I seeing differences in their appetites? Are they shutting down? Are we not talking as much as we used to talk?

There's a lot of things that we need to pay attention to when it comes to our kids just to make sure that they're okay and so that we're able to connect them with the support that they need earlier rather than later.

[00:25:13] Craig Macmillan: Is there one thing, just one piece of advice or one observation that you would recommend to our listeners around this topic?

[00:25:20] Misty Oebel: Can I go with two? Is that ok?

[00:25:22] Craig Macmillan: Two is great, do two.

[00:25:23] Misty Oebel: Okay. One of the first things I want to come back to. It's something that we've talked about a few different times. Is this idea of the generational aspect and the legacy piece? Because that is absolutely a barrier in farmers in, seeking behavioral health support.

There is kind of this idea of like, well, my dad was a farmer and he never saw a therapist and my grandpa was a farmer and he never saw a therapist. So is there something wrong with me now if I need additional support? And what we kind of forget is that depression and anxiety are not new. And if you're facing it, your dad probably had it too.

Your grandpa probably had it too, but they were struggling silently and never got the support that they needed. And I think that when we're looking at generational stuff, we always try to do it a little bit better with each generation. We want the farm to be a little bit bigger, a little bit cleaner.

We want to make sure that our processes are a little bit smoother. With each generation, it gets a little better and we do the same thing with parenting. You know, we want to be a slightly better parent to our kids than our parents were to us, and we hope that they do the same thing with their Children.

So I think that makes it really important that we recognize that just because past generations weren't receiving help, that doesn't mean we shouldn't receive help. It actually makes it more important because we're trying to prioritize that, and we're trying to make those changes in the family. So that's the number one thing I can think of.

And then the other thing, this is something I tell farmers all the time is the growers and the farmers that I know are very, very conscientious when it comes to caring for their land. And their animals and their crops and buildings and equipment, and they invest a lot of time and money into the maintenance of all of those things, because their assets but I'm always going to argue that the farmer is the most important asset in any farm.

And so I really feel very strongly that it's important that we prioritize caring for ourselves and we recognize that self care is not selfish. It's very important. If you're the most important asset on your farm, you've got to make sure that you're taking care of yourself.

[00:27:21] Craig Macmillan: I think that is a fantastic observation. Absolutely. Where can people find out more about you and more about the Farm Stress Management Program?

[00:27:30] Misty Oebel: I'm always going to recommend you go to our website. Not only do we have all of those great resources, but you can connect with staff through that website. We have all of our pictures on there. I'm on there. Dr. Remington Rice is our program lead. He is phenomenal. He has his information even in multiple places on the site.

So please reach out to us if you have any questions, thoughts, concerns want more information, that's the best way to get ahold of us.

[00:27:53] Craig Macmillan: Fantastic. Our guest today has been Misty Oebel. She's a health and farm stress extension educator with Michigan State University Extension. Thanks for being on the podcast. This is one of those areas we don't talk about very much. And I'm really glad that we did. And I think the work you guys are doing is fantastic.

And I hope that this model gets picked up in other states. We see it more widely applied because farming is important. And because farming is important, that means farmers are important. Just like you said, it's our asset. So thanks for being on podcast, Misty.

[00:28:22] Misty Oebel: Thank you so much for having me.

[00:28:23] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. Today's podcast was brought to you by vineyard professional services. Vineyard professional services works throughout the central coast of California, providing vineyard management, financial planning, vineyard development, equipment services, and a range of consulting services to wineries, growers, and investors. Established in 1997. VPS has leadership in San Louis Obispo, Santa Barbara . San Benito and Monterey counties. Their primary focus is effectively growing vineyard assets for quality and client profitability. Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Misty. Tools on how to cultivate a productive mindset.

And managing stress on the farm. If you liked the show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend subscribing and leaving us a review. You can find all of the podcasts@vineyardteam.org/podcast. And you can reach us at podcastatvineyardteam.org. Until next time, this is sustainable. Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

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